Date   

Re: All-Rental Community

Sharon Villines
 

On Jul 1, 2020, at 12:26 AM, maxeem <maxeem@...> wrote:

Would be good people to ask about it, even if their situation is very urban.

The city is so alluring and yet so difficult to live in that it has a million different living situations. When I lived there it felt like living in both a luxurious place and the most desolate country with broken transportation, dirt, people begging and peeing in the streets, etc. Every way you can imagine people living together is practiced daily in Manhattan.

One developer built on a very small lot — the apartments were 12’ by 12’ in a 8-10 floors because the lot was so small. The elevator protruded off the side. He expected to sell to people as a weekend or temporary residence. They were purchased by all kinds of people who all lived in them full time.

You could start with reading about intentional communities. I’m not sure how else to look them up. Usually when you start researching you find other keywords that go with the topic.



Re: All-Rental Community

Sharon Villines
 

On Jun 30, 2020, at 9:51 PM, Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:08, Sharon Villines via groups.io <sharon=sharonvillines.com@groups.io> wrote:
such as the cooperative buildings in Manhattan, where cooperatives began, the owners own shares in the organization/corporation, usually

You mean specifically housing co-operatives here ? Co-operatives in general most certainly did not begin in Manhattan !

Yes. As I understand it they started with the huge mansions in the city. Families scattered and others were down in income so they broke up the mansions and created cooperatives. They had full control over whom they accepted and they were often life time friends in the same boat. Many of the mansions already had separate suites so it didn’t even require a big overhaul.

Sharon


Re: All-Rental Community

maxeem
 

I think she meant where some example co-operatives were first founded.

Rochdale principles and such I think started in England about 200 years ago? I'd have to look at it again but I think it was born out of post-war famine and inequity there. And spread to farming and grocery cooperatives here in the Midwest and elsewhere ... but I'd love to learn more about the Manhattan ones. They have some cool examples of residence coops. Met some really nice people from them. I am trying to think of one starting with a "G" where some people came from to visit Twin Oaks when I was there and they seemed so experienced. Would be good people to ask about it, even if their situation is very urban.


On 6/30/20 6:51 PM, Steve Taylor wrote:


On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:08, Sharon Villines via groups.io <sharon=sharonvillines.com@groups.io> wrote:
such as the cooperative buildings in Manhattan, where cooperatives began, the owners own shares in the organization/corporation, usually

You mean specifically housing co-operatives here ? Co-operatives in general most certainly did not begin in Manhattan !


Re: All-Rental Community

Steve Taylor
 



On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:08, Sharon Villines via groups.io <sharon=sharonvillines.com@groups.io> wrote:
such as the cooperative buildings in Manhattan, where cooperatives began, the owners own shares in the organization/corporation, usually

You mean specifically housing co-operatives here ? Co-operatives in general most certainly did not begin in Manhattan !


Re: All-Rental Community

Sharon Villines
 

On Jun 29, 2020, at 7:05 PM, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper@...> wrote:

First, I posted a message this morning before I read this one so it isn’t in response.

The renters are the owners. The organization that operates Mirador would be a cooperative. Instead of paying your rent to a landlord, you would pay your rent to the community. The renter-owners would not be building equity for themselves but rather equity for the community. All proceeds would be invested directly back into the community. As long as you are a renter, you are a part-owner of the community.

One of the issues in our currently underprivileged populations is that they are not building a sense of ownership in addition to not building equity. They have no control. City councils don’t listen to renters even if the renters feel forward enough to go to city council meetings. The landlords can allow the buildings to decay while taking huge tax abatements on the property. The make money even if they don’t improve their buildings.

In a cooperative, such as the cooperative buildings in Manhattan, where cooperatives began, the owners own shares in the organization/corporation, usually in some relationship to the size of the apartments they occupy. They have the right to occupy a certain apartment because they are joint-owners in the whole venture. When they move they sell their shares. And the cooperative must approve the owners.

So the it is both a cooperative with everyone having a more or less equal say in how it functions (if they choose to), owners of stock are building equity based on how well their building is maintained and improved. The cooperatives I know are actually very rich, but it is a good model for low cost housing as well. The owners of shares then profit from their labor and have control over their lives and how the building is run. Maintaining property is a responsibility that has to be grown into. 

It would be very difficult to get and maintain buy-in when residents are both paying money and providing labor to develop the community. It could be a non-profit charity organization, much like Zen communities that also run bakeries, soup kitchens, etc. But in those communities the residents who work don’t pay rent. The ones who pay rent are people who work outside the community. They do chores to help out and defray costs. But when their money and work increases the value of the community, all the advantages stay in the community—and their rent goes up as well.

Otherwise you have an organization that rents living units to support itself.

You could find out how many people are willing to live in such places — no equity, pay rent. I suspect it is a temporary situation for people who have enough money to live elsewhere. There will probably be more people who are willing to work instead of paying rent.

How would decisions get made about how the money gets spent, etc.? Some form of consensus or perhaps sociocracy would be used.

The models in sociocracy are businesses that own themselves (there are no external owners) and everyone receives a salary from working in the business.  The business has a governance structure that specifies how the organization works. Who decides what. There can’t be an hostile takeovers.

In cohousing, the community is owned by all the participants. There is a tension sometimes between those who live there as renters and those who are owners. Should a renter participate in decisions that obligate owners to pay more money or take more risk than the renters do?

Income from the RV park, tourism, education, etc. would also be reinvested back into the community.

This makes sense as these services are for people’s partial needs — not their whole living situation. They are intended to be temporary for learning and experiencing the environment.

Raising the capital needed to purchase land would require issuing shares. Those shares would make you a community founder. Some future residents of Mirador will have money to invest in shares prior to living at Mirador, and others would not be able to pay anything until they begin renting. Some shareholders may not plan to live at Mirador but will want to support the project. We might consider some form of crowdfunding.

The sociocratic model is the only one I know that specifies the earnings and rights of the investors or shareholders. They have rights and a representative who participates decisions, but they do not own the organization and participate in decisions but have no control over them the way corporate shareholders do.

My sense of crowd funding — based on no research — is that it works when a project is dear to someone’s heart and they receive something in return. Start ups, for example, are “selling” preorders of their product. Perhaps selling 2 weeks vacation in Mirador.

Otherwise you are facing the same things non-profit organizations face— foundations don’t fund operations. They fund special programs, sometimes special facilities. People who donate money are hard to convince to donate money for operations.

Since Mirador will have an RV park, a sharehouse, apartments, and a cohousing community, where will people be able to live on-site until the community raises enough funds from rental and business income to build their permanent homes? We might find some land with an existing house on it that could be used right away as the sharehouse, and others could live in the RV park until their apartments or homes are built.

There would have to be some upfront investment in setting up all the connections the RVs need and probably converting the existing building to part living spaces and part group facilities. Studying the way people operate boat docks might be helpful. Some boats stay for years and others dock a few months of the year. One I know in Annapolis has facilities on shore — a pool, recreational center, and apts for people who don’t live on their boats but dock there.

Some amount of conventional financing seems likely so the community gets developed faster than at a snail's pace...

I may have told you this before but I’m sure there is someone out there who didn’t see it so I will repeat it. The usual way that cohousing communities start is that 70-75 % of the units have to have purchase contracts with down payments before the bank will loan construction funds. We had a developer who started the project so he had money to pay for the underground stuff and the permits. But we all had to sign contracts with checks for 5% of the purchase price. That meant the bank was only financing units that had already been sold. Not much risk. And they knew the developer so that helped a lot.

Is there a city around the area you are interested in? How remote is it?

Sharon


Re: Off-Grid Systems

Sharon Villines
 

On Jun 29, 2020, at 10:26 AM, Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:

Yes, those are very handy.
I think the ONLY way we'll develop Hidalgo is with some very creative solutions that keep things affordable and serviceable out there. 

You might want to look at the SustainableCohousing.org site. It’s a new site so not a lot of information but I’m researching options for low cost housing. I just put up a blog post on building strong communities and keeping building costs low while still producing a house that banks will finance and zoning boards will approve.


After a life time of real estate sales and development in Dallas, Ty Albright is working on a model for low-cost housing. Every cohousing community begins wanting to be low cost to be inclusive and diverse. They all end up at market rate or above and some people inevitably have to leave because they can’t afford the rising costs. Zoning and construction requirements raise costs but it is also caused by the desire for green technology and cool things. If you are building yourself, you want it to be everything it can be.

Albright says the main points to keeping the initial design low cost are:

1. Forget expensive green technology. Good insulation and a tin roof that will last forever. That’s it.

2. Don’t include any features that will scare the bank or the city planning board. Sod houses were a great idea in the Wild West, but not something a bank or town board will even think about. (A community in Utah did get approval for straw bale, however.)

3. Traditional houses on traditional lots. 2-story with a big room upstairs. Can then you can have a roommate or finish it off as an apt. (But don’t mouth it around.) Never say two-family. 

4. Partner with a local builder so the builder will profit by doing a good job in the least amount of time required. Being an investor elevates the builder and shares the risk/responsibility.

5. Choose an area with other amenities — state parks, recreation water, some history. Anything that adds a bit of extra interest and can be capitalized in the future. A Dark Sky community would fill the bill.

6. Build with what you have. Don’t go looking for more. It adds risk, not opportunity.

8. Build one house at a time. Build the first, sell, get the mortgage, build the second. If 8 people can invest $33,000, they could do this themselves without involving a bank. If the houses cost $164,000 to build and will sell for $197,000, that is a return of $33,000 on the first house. Then a mortgage will be available for the finished house. And the second house can be built.

This is the traditional Chinese method used in NY in immigrant communities. Money is pooled to set up one member of the group in a business. Then the money goes to the second person. (I have no idea how they decide who is first, second, etc.) 

Albright is now working on a model for a $100,000 house. I would doubt very much that it won’t work since he is basing his strategy on knowledge of the field. Working with a local builder also adds local knowledge and trust — if you choose a builder who is trusted locally the bank and potential buyers will be reassured. A #1 consideration.

He highly recommends the Pocket Neighborhood book by Ross Chapin.

https://www.pocket-neighborhoods.net

The blog post includes some other tips on changing your perspective in order to use what you have without reaching beyond yur means.

Sharon


Re: All-Rental Community

David Oesper
 

Sharon,

Ever since your post yesterday I’ve been thinking a lot about how Mirador could be structured as an all-rental community. Here’s my idea.

The renters are the owners. The organization that operates Mirador would be a cooperative. Instead of paying your rent to a landlord, you would pay your rent to the community. The renter-owners would not be building equity for themselves but rather equity for the community. All proceeds would be invested directly back into the community. As long as you are a renter, you are a part-owner of the community.

How would decisions get made about how the money gets spent, etc.? Some form of consensus or perhaps sociocracy would be used.

Income from the RV park, tourism, education, etc. would also be reinvested back into the community.

Raising the capital needed to purchase land would require issuing shares. Those shares would make you a community founder. Some future residents of Mirador will have money to invest in shares prior to living at Mirador, and others would not be able to pay anything until they begin renting. Some shareholders may not plan to live at Mirador but will want to support the project. We might consider some form of crowdfunding.

What privileges will be afforded to community founders/shareholders? Will community founders/shareholders have any privileges that differ from the renter-owners after the community is established? These are questions that will need to be answered.

Since Mirador will have an RV park, a sharehouse, apartments, and a cohousing community, where will people be able to live on-site until the community raises enough funds from rental and business income to build their permanent homes? We might find some land with an existing house on it that could be used right away as the sharehouse, and others could live in the RV park until their apartments or homes are built.

Some amount of conventional financing seems likely so the community gets developed faster than at a snail's pace...

Lots to work out yet to create a viable business plan, but that’s the gist.

Thanks,

Dave


Re: Off-Grid Systems

Steve Taylor
 

Yes, those are very handy.
I think the ONLY way we'll develop Hidalgo is with some very creative solutions that keep things affordable and serviceable out there.


On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 23:42, Bennett Jones via groups.io <byl_liberty=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Re: Water - Priority is lowest water use faucets/fixtures/appliances, then catch rainwater, then use greywater for subsurface irrigation of trees on the Northwest side of the residence. There is no need to distill rainwater, just filter out the dust then purify. Recycling showers are not really an advantage in stationary home applications, but hold great potential for mobile applications. The same for lithium batteries. Lead acid is still the battery tech for stationary applications, unless you have the budget for Nickle Iron.

--
 


Re: Off-Grid Systems

Lonnie Dittrick
 

Thanks for all the great information Bennett.  Will definitely look into some of those references.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:42 PM Bennett Jones via groups.io <byl_liberty=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Re: Water - Priority is lowest water use faucets/fixtures/appliances, then catch rainwater, then use greywater for subsurface irrigation of trees on the Northwest side of the residence. There is no need to distill rainwater, just filter out the dust then purify. Recycling showers are not really an advantage in stationary home applications, but hold great potential for mobile applications. The same for lithium batteries. Lead acid is still the battery tech for stationary applications, unless you have the budget for Nickle Iron.

This is what I do (design integrated off-grid systems: shelter, power, water, "waste", food, fiber, fuel, pharmaceutical, etc.).
I have lots of info if anyone is looking for something specific.

Samples:

Rainwater Harvesting (RWH) -
Texas Rainwater Harvesting Manual 3rd Ed.
http://www.twdb.texas.gov/publications/brochures/conservation/doc/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf 

"Texas is one of only a few states in the nation that has devoted a considerable amount of attention to rainwater harvesting and has enacted many laws regulating the practice of collecting rainwater."

  • Texas Tax Code 151.355 allows for a state sales tax exemption on rainwater harvesting equipment.

SOURCE:
http://www.twdb.texas.gov/innovativewater/rainwater/

Texas Sales and Use Tax Exemption Certification - http://rainwaterharvesting.tamu.edu/files/2011/05/tax.pdf

Zephaniah Phiri - The Water Harvester

"Water harvesting principles & the story of an African rain farmer Design guidelines for regenerative" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6_WZ789lpM
Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond by Brad Lancaster -
https://www.harvestingrainwater.com/rainwater-harvesting-inforesources/rainwater-harvesting-inforesourcesdownspout-gutter-sizing/

"The Water Harvester: A Film on Zephaniah Phiri" -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieqYZaT0JwA

Greywater -
The greywater reference books -
http://oasisdesign.net/greywater/ 

My favorite urine diverting dry toilet systems -
https://www.separett.com/en-gb/ 

My go to purifiers -
https://generalecology.com/collections/residential

 -Bennett

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


Off-Grid Systems

Bennett Jones
 

Re: Water - Priority is lowest water use faucets/fixtures/appliances, then catch rainwater, then use greywater for subsurface irrigation of trees on the Northwest side of the residence. There is no need to distill rainwater, just filter out the dust then purify. Recycling showers are not really an advantage in stationary home applications, but hold great potential for mobile applications. The same for lithium batteries. Lead acid is still the battery tech for stationary applications, unless you have the budget for Nickle Iron.

This is what I do (design integrated off-grid systems: shelter, power, water, "waste", food, fiber, fuel, pharmaceutical, etc.).
I have lots of info if anyone is looking for something specific.

Samples:

Rainwater Harvesting (RWH) -
Texas Rainwater Harvesting Manual 3rd Ed.
http://www.twdb.texas.gov/publications/brochures/conservation/doc/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf 

"Texas is one of only a few states in the nation that has devoted a considerable amount of attention to rainwater harvesting and has enacted many laws regulating the practice of collecting rainwater."

  • Texas Tax Code 151.355 allows for a state sales tax exemption on rainwater harvesting equipment.

SOURCE:
http://www.twdb.texas.gov/innovativewater/rainwater/

Texas Sales and Use Tax Exemption Certification - http://rainwaterharvesting.tamu.edu/files/2011/05/tax.pdf

Zephaniah Phiri - The Water Harvester

"Water harvesting principles & the story of an African rain farmer Design guidelines for regenerative" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6_WZ789lpM
Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond by Brad Lancaster -
https://www.harvestingrainwater.com/rainwater-harvesting-inforesources/rainwater-harvesting-inforesourcesdownspout-gutter-sizing/

"The Water Harvester: A Film on Zephaniah Phiri" -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieqYZaT0JwA

Greywater -
The greywater reference books -
http://oasisdesign.net/greywater/ 

My favorite urine diverting dry toilet systems -
https://www.separett.com/en-gb/ 

My go to purifiers -
https://generalecology.com/collections/residential

 -Bennett


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Lonnie Dittrick
 

Oooohhh, Navy shower time!

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:39 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
I'm not necessarily thinking of it being necessarily potable, the amount we actually drink is really very small. Dust sediments out, and modern filters will easily fix the rest.
I too am thinking of a composting system for waste.
And I am building a recycling shower which has exotic filters in it to allow us to shower safely and happily with two gallons of water a time.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:32, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Do you think a rain harvesting system would be a viable option at our location?  We could collect enough to make this feasible?  How would you keep the water potable?  How would you handle the dust which is always an issue?  I have considered a biodegradable system to handle human waste...

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:19 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
Figuring on rainwater harvesting, solar and a lithium ion battery rack for the first parts of solutions to my problems.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:13, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Steve Taylor
 

The rule of thumb for collection is (IIRC)  620 (US) gallons (I'm British) 2300 litres. per 1000 sq feet, per inch of rain - Hidalgo gets roughly 12" of water a year. With the water saving/harvesting we could do, I think its viable to capture our roof runoff. 

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:43, Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
True. IIRC, our water table is around 200 feet down, but it's very expensive drilling round there, and the stuff falls out of the sky for free. Of course, if Hidalgo had happened, there would have been well-shares going on, but can't see that happening now, with the fragmented and unknown ownerships.




On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:36, maxeem <maxeem@...> wrote:

Solar distillation tends to make water extremely pure indeed, and that's a kinda good solution for the desert due to the heat. You just have to maintain the materials of the distiller so it doesn't break down under the intense sun radiation exposure. So could look into that. Also potentially useful to find where a given water table is at. Sometimes there are areas where it's surprisingly closer to the surface. For wells/drilling. Being by mountains can sometimes help I heard. The water from the mountain is more available.

Max


On 6/28/20 12:30 PM, Lonnie Dittrick wrote:
Do you think a rain harvesting system would be a viable option at our location?  We could collect enough to make this feasible?  How would you keep the water potable?  How would you handle the dust which is always an issue?  I have considered a biodegradable system to handle human waste...

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:19 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
Figuring on rainwater harvesting, solar and a lithium ion battery rack for the first parts of solutions to my problems.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:13, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 
--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


--
 
--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 


--
 


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Steve Taylor
 

True. IIRC, our water table is around 200 feet down, but it's very expensive drilling round there, and the stuff falls out of the sky for free. Of course, if Hidalgo had happened, there would have been well-shares going on, but can't see that happening now, with the fragmented and unknown ownerships.




On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:36, maxeem <maxeem@...> wrote:

Solar distillation tends to make water extremely pure indeed, and that's a kinda good solution for the desert due to the heat. You just have to maintain the materials of the distiller so it doesn't break down under the intense sun radiation exposure. So could look into that. Also potentially useful to find where a given water table is at. Sometimes there are areas where it's surprisingly closer to the surface. For wells/drilling. Being by mountains can sometimes help I heard. The water from the mountain is more available.

Max


On 6/28/20 12:30 PM, Lonnie Dittrick wrote:
Do you think a rain harvesting system would be a viable option at our location?  We could collect enough to make this feasible?  How would you keep the water potable?  How would you handle the dust which is always an issue?  I have considered a biodegradable system to handle human waste...

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:19 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
Figuring on rainwater harvesting, solar and a lithium ion battery rack for the first parts of solutions to my problems.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:13, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 
--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


--
 
--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Steve Taylor
 

I'm not necessarily thinking of it being necessarily potable, the amount we actually drink is really very small. Dust sediments out, and modern filters will easily fix the rest.
I too am thinking of a composting system for waste.
And I am building a recycling shower which has exotic filters in it to allow us to shower safely and happily with two gallons of water a time.


On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:32, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Do you think a rain harvesting system would be a viable option at our location?  We could collect enough to make this feasible?  How would you keep the water potable?  How would you handle the dust which is always an issue?  I have considered a biodegradable system to handle human waste...

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:19 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
Figuring on rainwater harvesting, solar and a lithium ion battery rack for the first parts of solutions to my problems.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:13, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

maxeem
 

Solar distillation tends to make water extremely pure indeed, and that's a kinda good solution for the desert due to the heat. You just have to maintain the materials of the distiller so it doesn't break down under the intense sun radiation exposure. So could look into that. Also potentially useful to find where a given water table is at. Sometimes there are areas where it's surprisingly closer to the surface. For wells/drilling. Being by mountains can sometimes help I heard. The water from the mountain is more available.

Max


On 6/28/20 12:30 PM, Lonnie Dittrick wrote:
Do you think a rain harvesting system would be a viable option at our location?  We could collect enough to make this feasible?  How would you keep the water potable?  How would you handle the dust which is always an issue?  I have considered a biodegradable system to handle human waste...

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:19 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
Figuring on rainwater harvesting, solar and a lithium ion battery rack for the first parts of solutions to my problems.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:13, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 
--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


--
 
--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Lonnie Dittrick
 

Do you think a rain harvesting system would be a viable option at our location?  We could collect enough to make this feasible?  How would you keep the water potable?  How would you handle the dust which is always an issue?  I have considered a biodegradable system to handle human waste...

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:19 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
Figuring on rainwater harvesting, solar and a lithium ion battery rack for the first parts of solutions to my problems.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:13, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Steve Taylor
 

Figuring on rainwater harvesting, solar and a lithium ion battery rack for the first parts of solutions to my problems.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 15:13, Lonnie Dittrick <Ldittrick1955@...> wrote:
Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com



--
 


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Lonnie Dittrick
 

Well that is good to hear, Steve.  Unfortunately, on the western side of the development it is, in the words of one of your more popular novelists, dead as a door nail 😉.  Unless things change dramatically on my end I will keep it simply to boondock with an RV.  I had the road improved enough to get to the pad I had built.  Thought about putting up a roll-off observatory with enough solar to power it.  But water, septic, power to run a/c.... don’t know if it is worth the investment.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:58 PM Steve Taylor <steveastrouk@...> wrote:
There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



--
 

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


Re: All-Rental Community

Lonnie Dittrick
 

I know I am the newest member of this group but I would suggest that infusing our political biases into the discussion on rental communities is probably not wise or beneficial.  Sharon’s insight into all-rental communities has some validity, but I and perhaps some other members of the group have a complete opposite opinion on our national leaders.  Rep. Pelosi is far from what I would consider a virtuous, altruistic, self-sacrificing leader, but I will stop at that.  Let’s stay on topic and keep our biases out of it, or I will be the first to bow out, respectfully.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:00 PM David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Sharon,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments about the disadvantages of an all-rental community. This is such an important topic that I would like to start a separate thread under the topic "All-Rental Community". Everyone: please post your thoughts on this topic under this thread.

Thanks much,

Dave

--
“The Universe declares Your Majesty.”
www.londittrickphotography.com


Re: Hi Everyone!! Another Rancho Hidalgo Refuge on Board

Steve Taylor
 

There's activity at Hidalgo. The current residents have just had a major upgrade to the road there. Dark Skies New Mexico seems to be doing OK there too.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:30, David Oesper via groups.io <oesper=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Welcome to the group, Lon! For those of you who don't know, Lon is an accomplished photographer, including astrophotography:

http://londittrickphotography.com/

I'm glad you brought up hosting remote observatories as an income source for a dark-sky community. I've always wanted to be the one at the dark-sky site helping to keep the observatories and equipment running instead of the one who is utilizing a remote observatory.

A few days ago, my one and only inquiry (so far) from the S&T classified ad also suggested remote observatory hosting, so I amended the Observatory Campus section of the Mirador Astronomy Village specifications document to include this:


Observatory Campus

The observatory campus will be the designated area set aside for astronomical observation. This will include observatories (individually or cooperatively rented), telescope pads, and a meteor watching deck. One observatory will be provided for the use of all residents of Mirador. The observatory campus will be located within easy walking distance of the residential campus.

A section of the observatory campus should be set aside for remote observatory hosting. Individual observatories would be leased by the hour or by the night to interested astronomers anywhere in the world. A larger structure with multiple telescopes inside could also be used for this purpose. High speed internet access is crucial, and must support remote interactive use. Remote observatory hosting will be another important source of income for the community.


Like you and Steve, I, too, am a Rancho Hidalgo land owner trying to figure out what to do with the property. I purchased 4 acres there about 12 years ago for $26K. If I can ever sell that property for what I bought it for, I would donate $13K towards the land-purchase for Mirador Astronomy Village (the other half is already spoken for).

Dave



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